About Kirk Cameron, Homosexuality, and Gay Marriage

Now the newest celebrity in the media crosshairs is Kirk Cameron. The former teen star of the hit sitcom Growing Pains, star of the popular Left Behind movies, and current Christian activist made waves last week while on Piers Morgan Tonight. (You can watch the video here)

Piers Morgan cornered Cameron with some difficult questions about social issues:  “What is your view of gay marriage?” “Would you tell [your children] that gay marriage is a sin?” Of course, asking anyone for answers to those questions is bound to divide thousands. Those who are pro-homosexuality and gay marriage will find opposition from many people, and those who believe those things are wrong or sinful will find strong opposition as well. This has been a “hot topic” in America for a while now, but with an election around the corner, things are only heating up.

Kirk Cameron answered honestly and bluntly. “I believe that marriage was defined by God a long time ago. Marriage is almost as old as dirt.”

From a Christian and biblical perspective, he is right on. Marriage was established by God in Genesis chapter 2. Jesus reaffirmed this in his preaching and teaching about marriage. He also confirmed it through the words of the apostle Paul in Ephesians 5:22-33, among other places in Scripture.

The harder question to answer publicly, and the one that obviously gave Cameron pause, was: “Do you think homosexuality is a sin.” He responded by saying that it is “unnatural,” “detrimental,” and “destructive,” but he never came outright and said that he thought it is a sin. However, what he said alluded to the fact that he obviously believes homosexuality is a sin.

This is really the core question in the issue: Is homosexuality a sin? If homosexuality is a sin, then quite obviously gay marriage would be a sin, too.

For Christians, we must turn back to the Words of God. Human logic and reasoning are not and cannot be the standard for our morality. The words of God must always be the basis for what we believe.

We could turn back to Genesis 2 and the institution of marriage. We could turn to God’s views of the actions of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah as evil and what happened as a result in Genesis 18-19. We could turn to God’s laws in Leviticus 18 about sexual relations. These all make it very clear that God views homosexuality as a sin.

Some might argue that these are God’s “old” laws–that these were in the Old Testament and don’t apply any more. Or, one could reason that we have simply changed as people now so this doesn’t apply.

Those aren’t really valid arguments. But as if the Old Testament were not enough, there is also plenty of evidence in the New Testament that God views homosexuality as sinful. The greatest example is in Romans 1. There we hear about God giving over the sinful people of the world to their “shameful” lusts. Homosexuality specifically is mentioned. The punishment awaiting persistent sinners is also mentioned. (Note I said persistent sinners, not just homosexuals.) 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 also lists homosexuals as just one group in a list of persistent sinners who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

So is homosexuality a sin? Most definitely, YES!

Does this mean that Christians ought to be opposed to gay marriage? Most definitely, YES! God’s people ought not support things contrary to the will of God.

Some might argue that this is a natural thing. Or that this is a different kind of love today than people had before. Or that people might be born this way. Piers Morgan hinted at some of these thoughts in his interview with Kirk Cameron.

But these arguments aren’t valid in opposition to the Word of God. God’s Word and God’s will always stand. They never change. Nor can we change them. What God said was sinful long ago is still sinful today. The standard of morality among many people might change over the years, but God’s does not.

In addition, even if people were theoretically “born that way,” that doesn’t mean they should act upon those feelings. I’m born as a sinful and imperfect person. We all are. But that doesn’t mean that God wants me to act upon my sinful cravings. Someone’s sinful passions might be for lust or greed or anger or alcohol abuse or homosexuality. But that doesn’t mean that any one of them is right in God’s sight. They are all sinful activities.

Unfortunately, Kirk Cameron is being blasted all over the media now. GLAAD is leading the charge. He is being mocked, made fun of, and much worse. This leads me to agree with what Kirk Cameron was beginning to touch on at the end. This isn’t exactly “fair.” There are many different standards of morality in the world. So to call one person’s (Kirk Cameron’s) viewpoint biased and bigoted is in return being biased and bigoted.

See, the public media and mainstream thinking is not that Christians ought to respect homosexuals as people (which many, including myself, do). They want Christians to approve of homosexuality. Anything less is considered discrimination.

But ironically (or sadly), to not respect Christians who have a different viewpoint is also discrimination. To say that it is wrong for people to have other beliefs is discrimination. To allow homosexuals to criticize and make fun of Christians, but then to not allow Christians to say homosexuality is wrong is discrimination.

Why are are homosexuals allowed to have their set of values and beliefs but Christians are not?

But I am not looking for any kind of political debate. To be honest, it perhaps would be easier on us Christians if Kirk Cameron and others stayed out of the media spotlight. Save the witnessing and proclaiming of God’s Word for the actual pulpits or for personal conversations.

Finally, I must share these important thoughts about homosexuality: Homosexuality is in fact a sin. But so are lots of things. I will echo Kirk Cameron and say that I belong on the top of the list of “worst offender” sinners. Yet we have a gracious God who is loving and forgiving. Forgiveness is available for all people all the time, even for the sin of homosexuality. Those who turn to Jesus in faith will find the Lamb of God who “takes away the sin of the world.”

I pray that all sinners, including homosexuals, join me in repenting of every sin we commit and looking to the cross of Christ and his empty tomb where we have forgiveness and victory over death and every kind of sin.

There in Christ is true happiness. There in Christ is true living. There in Christ is better living. There in Christ is eternal living.


About Pastor Phil Huebner

Pastor. Missionary. Principal. Husband. Father. Serving in love as each. http://www.ctkpalmcoast.com

Posted on March 8, 2012, in Church, Preschool and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 56 Comments.

  1. Very well written, Pastor. I especially liked your paragraph about “born this way”. What a refreshing way to explain that. As for Kirk Cameron, I will pray for him! I have been a fan of his since my teenage years and am a fan even more today 🙂

    • Thank you! It’s really true though that none of us has any excuses before God. We all are born with a sinful nature, but that doesn’t mean any of us should act upon its desires–no matter what that sin might be.

  2. What a hard topic to talk about. But I believe you handled and discussed it in a very rational and Christian way. I am thankful the Holy Spirit has given you the discernment and knowledge to discuss this topic in a Godly way. I agree with you. Very good article for these trying times in a society that is losing its Christian morals and family values.

  3. Jenny Krauklis

    This is a great response. I have a brother who is gay and in a relationship. He still believes in Christ and has found a church that declares homosexuality to be okay. We love him, we pray for him, we still are very close. However, when we discuss the topic of homosexuality as sin,(or any sexual desires as sin, such as sex before marriage, pornography, etc) his response is always that Jesus never specifically says it is sin. He won’t admit to believing the bible. He says he wil believe what Jesus says. In other words, OT and NT passages, he really won’t listen to, unless it specifically was from Jesus mouth. I often don’t know how to respond to this. What would be your response to this?

    • Pastor Paul Brug

      We just talked about this in religion class today. Some additional thoughts: First of all, look at Matthew 19:4-5:
      “Haven’t you read,” Jesus replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
      While it doesn’t specifically address homosexuality, Jesus clearly says that marriage is one man and one woman.
      You could also point out that there are plenty of other sins he doesn’t talk about directly. For example, Jesus never specifically says that rape is a sin. I think it’s safe to say that doesn’t automatically mean that it’s OK.

  4. You could probably approach it a couple different ways Jenny. You could start with the Bible passages that tell us all of the Bible is Jesus words. In fact, Jesus is the Word (John 1:1). Or verses about the inspiration of Scripture. Or look to Jesus who said, “Sanctify them by the truth, your Word is truth” (John 17:7). Then there is Jesus referencing the judgment Sodom will receive on the last day in Luke 10:12. We know from Scripture why they will receive judgment.

    You could also try logic: “Fine. It is not recorded for us that Jesus says it is a sin in those exact words. But he never says it is acceptable either. The rest of the Bible though makes it clear that it is wrong.”

    Or you could argue this way: You can’t pick and choose what you want from Scripture to suit your own fancy. You can’t believe one thing but disregard another thing.

    Finally, it will probably come down to what you are doing: Sharing the truth in love. Being patient. Praying a lot. The Word of God is what has all the power. The Law of God has the power to crush a sinful and prideful heart and the Gospel of God has the power to restore the peace of true and full forgiveness. Trust that power!

    I will certainly pray for you and your family!

  5. Phil, an excellent article. I plan to share this with my own people.
    Truly, Christian celebs will face only ridicule for speaking the truth about homosexuality or any other sin that society accepts as “normal” or an “acceptable alternative.”
    The benefit of such public declarations cannot be overlooked. For Christians to see that their beliefs are shared not only by members of their own church or church body, but by “famous people” from whom they have come to expect only the worst sort of behavior, is encouraging to those who feel they are walking a lonely path. Yes, the Scriptures are our only source for encouragement and hope in this dying world, and our Lord Jesus promised to be with us until the very end of the age – but considered from the perspective of weak, frail and fearful human hearts, they are strengthened by the knowledge that “us” is not as small as they believed, for so God strengthened Elijah when he thought he was alone.
    Would it be easier if Kirk and others shut their mouths? Perhaps, but Christians don’t do easy – we bear crosses.
    I applaud Mr. Cameron for saying as much as he did (though having gone that far, I wonder why he didn’t simply say “Yes, it’s a sin”) – and pray I would have such courage were I ever challenged under such a public spotlight.

  6. Why is homosexuality important to all the heterosexual people? Many words of Jesus would show that, as it is not a temptation for those heterosexual people, so it should not be a concern. First take the log out of your own eye. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Etc. Etc.

    Why do you care so much about this?

    • Clare, no one here is claiming to be without sin or is casting any stones. However, as Christians, we need to understand the world and the social issues around us. We also need to know when we counsel homosexual people what to tell them about that activity.

  7. Guy William MOlnar

    Disapprove of homosexuality all you care to, but don’t think that when you support laws restricting my rights that you’re not a bigot. I disapprove of a lot of things that are legal, but I know it’s not my right to restrict them. What do you want for people born gay? A life of celibacy? Loneliness? Solitude? Isolation? Ostracism? Somewhere along the line you people got the idea that a relationships with Jesus will somehow change what inspires one’s erections.

    Here is a very simple test, for which I have yet to find any takers: PROVE that homosexuality is a choice. Go ahead. Prove it. For a day, a week a month. CHOOSE to be gay. You don’t even have to have gay sex. Just “be” gay. Have your erections in response to thoughts of sex with men, or in response to sensually exciting male images. Since it’s a choice you can then CHOOSE to be straight again at the end of the trial period.

    Your argument is written from a much more loving Christian (from my perspective, anyway) perspective than most such pieces, and I thank you sincerely for that. But you are writing from a position of ignorance about what it feels like to be gay. And you are wrong about how your disapproval should translate into legislation. Just because something isn’t Christian doesn’t mean it should be legal.

    No one has ever proved that gay marriage is harmful to society. In Massachusetts the sun still rises and sets, and the divorce rate there remains LOWER than in states where bigotry reigns.

    Ironically enough, I linked to your well-written piece from a facebook post by a cherished friend whose “Christian” heterosexual marriage went on the rocks when her “Christian” husband started screwing around. My point being that heterosexual marriages are not AUTOMACALLY in and of themselves inherently good. My husband (yes, I use that word) and I have been together – and faithful – for 21 years. And we’re a bad example? I think we’re a TERRIFIC example.

    • Guy, thank you for your tempered and respectful response.

      Ironically, your last example about your Christian friends who had some unfaithfulness disproves your “simple test.” You argue that homosexuals should be able to follow their innate passions and desires for love and sex. However, that doesn’t make that right in God’s sight. Look at those Christian friends of yours. The husband apparently followed his passions and desires for love and sex and in so doing ended up doing something considered sinful–adultery.

      So what matters is not our passions and desires. What matters is what God says. You might have the desire for a homosexual relationship. That doesn’t mean it isn’t sinful in God’s sight. Your friend might have the desire to act upon his lusts. That doesn’t mean it isn’t sinful in God’s sight. I might have the desire to act in anger with a short fuse. That doesn’t mean that is right. Whether or not humans have these things in our DNA is not the point. The point is that God doesn’t want us to act on things he considers sinful!

      Thus, your simple test is flawed. You’re asking something of someone that doesn’t struggle with that sin. But, use that same test in a different contest. Ask a Christian to choose not to say “Oh my God” for a week and see how it goes. Ask an alcoholic not to have a drink for a week and see how it goes. THEN you would see some real struggling. THEN they would be able to understand what it was like to struggle with a sin. And THEN, my point would be proved that no sinful struggle is acceptable in God’s sight, be it homosexuality, cursing, lust, or anything else.

      So what is the homosexual to do? Well I do not–and hopefully no other Christians–have any intentions to isolate, ostracize, or chastise homosexuals. Rather, I encourage you and others to “fight the good fight.” Just as I fight all the myriad of sinful cravings and passions I have, so you can too. As I try to align my life with a holy God who is bigger than I, so I encourage you to do the same.

      Finally (I’m working backwards here) regarding gay marriage, we are not really infringing upon human rights in such a situation. Rather, we are following in the footsteps of the disciples who said, “We must obey God rather than men.” If God says that homosexuality is not right, then I’m not going to support it. If God says that abortion is not right, that I’m not going to want that to be allowable either. So, our objection is not really against the government or against the people. Our objection would be with the sin and making the sin easier, more prevalent, and more allowable.

      I may only pray that such discussions on this topic continue in a respectful and loving way from both sides of the issue–with Christians showing respect to homosexuals and vice versa.

  8. I think the missing piece in a lot of these discussions has been identified above–love.

    Too often, otherwise well-meaning Christians lack love when they enter political/social issues discussion. They identify their goal–stopping abortions or upholding the God-ordained definition of marriage–but their methods of reaching that goal become tainted with the same exact sin.

    The Bible teaches, clearly, that REAL change in behavior is only effected through faith–not through arguments, or laws, or demonstrations or anger. Love for souls is what brought Jesus to earth and love for souls is what brings sinners back to Jesus. Nothing else.

    I think every Christian who wants to effect REAL social change in the world would be much better served with an extra dose of the love shown here.

  9. Great article pastor! I landed here via a link from someone who calls you a ‘fool’ and a bigot. Whatever. God bless you! A tough subject to discuss, well done.

    • Thanks John! She kind of proves the point I guess. Why is it that the pro-homosexuality group can have their viewpoint but we cannot? That’s reverse discrimination!

      At the very least, we don’t have to agree, but they can at least respect that we have a different opinion and/or belief!

      • Right back at you! You, and your church, can have your thoughts about homosexuality, but to have your church enforce your narrow view of marriage to the homosexual population is to mix church with state, and goes against exactly what you have said.

  10. I am the one who called you a fool and a bigot. I also said you are not fit to be a pastor, and this is why: because if you have a congregation of any size, you will be demanding that at least one parent in it torture their child, by saying that his/her natural homosexual desires are sinful, and that they are less than normal, and possibly, even, that they will go to Hell for it.

    Why should we be allowed our opinion, and you not? Because you seek to enforce your opinion on us. You continue to drive people from the church by your fraudulent “ex-gay” programmes- go on, Pastor, please tell me I am wrong, please tell me that you do not support “ex-gay” programmes- and when we seek to celebrate our loving unions, you say that we should not; and that the law should treat our unions, in terms of tax, health insurance, pensions, next of kin status and other rights as less than other unions. Again, Pastor, tell me I am wrong, tell me that you support equal marriage. Equal marriage laws do not enforce our opinions on you, because they do not affect you. Your bigoted opinions affect us, by making equal marriage more difficult. I do not care what bigotry you believe in, with consenting adults in private.

    • Well the nice thing is that you don’t determine whether I’m fit to be a pastor–God and his Church do.

      Anyways, God demands of all people that they forego their natural desires for sin and follow him. God does not only say in his Word that people should not follow homosexual desires, but they also should not curse or swear or lie or deceive or lust, etc. etc. And that is a battle for all of us. Some fight one sinful urge, others fight a different one.

      As for gay-marriage, it will continue to be true that many Christians, including myself, will not support something that is not right in God’s sight. Gay marriage is not, so we will not support it. Abortion is also not right in God’s sight, so we will not support that either.

      Clare, isn’t it interesting that you post replies on my blog with such anger and passion and aggressive words, but I specifically chose not to post on your blog? And if ever I would, I would certainly continue to do so with love and civility and not with anger and aggression.

    • Someone else appointed you pastor. The blind lead the blind.

      Actually, I would rather you commented on my blog, because at the moment there is the risk that we merely talk past each other rather than to each other.

      Anger and passion and aggression: why? Because your lies make us suffer. We hear them from our parents, and from our society, and we take them into ourselves and hurt ourselves. It is still happening, and you pretend to pastor people on behalf of Christ, first torturing them in his name, and then driving them from the church. I am angry because I have been hurt like this. Yet I am made in the image of God, and acceptable in God’s sight. Better my anger than your self-righteous smugness. You will “love” me, and tell me that how God made me is vile and wicked.

      • I would consider words like “lies” “pretend to pastor” and “torturing” to be aggressive and angry. I will try not to do the same.

        Clare, check out Genesis 5:3. None of us are made in the image of God any more. Only Adam and Eve were. Everyone else is in the image of their parents, born sinful and imperfect. So it is a false argument to claim that homosexuality is ok because that is “in the image of God”. None of us are born in God’s image, so none of our sins are acceptable to God.

        I am very sorry that you feel hurt and feel like you are suffering. I pray that God would give you peace of heart and mind through his love and peace.

        Clare, do you know what your status with God is like? If you by chance happened to die tonight, do you know where you would after this life? And do you know why you would be there?

      • I know that I will not go to Hell. But, generally, I think that it is more important to do God’s work in this life, rather than worry over much about the next: “do not worry what you will wear”. Make disciples of all nations. “Behold, I have made all things new”: build the Kingdom of Heaven here on Earth. That sort of thing.

  11. It is certainly important to serve God here and now. But this life is only temporal. Eternity is eternity. So where we spend eternity is of great concern.

    I hear you speaking a lot about what we do here in this life. But that is not what guarantees us Heaven. God says that “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” and “Your iniquity has separated you from God” and “Whoever keeps the whole law, but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”

    So even one sin–just one bad word, one bad thought, etc.–makes us a sinner. And God declares that our sins separate us from him and from heaven. And this is true for all of us!

    That’s a big problem, don’t you think?

    • Actually, you hear me quoting the man you claim is your Saviour and Lord talking about what we must do in this life. And I think you would have a doctrine of Salvation, to deal with that “big problem”, do you not? Paul says that redemption is impossible through Law: so Salvation is necessary.

      • Yes indeed! And so Jesus tells us that salvation is found in him alone! “For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.”

        So the answer to the question is that I know that I will be in heaven because I trust that Jesus has forgiven all my sins and through my faith in him I will have eternal life. However, if I look to myself and to my own works as a way to earn heaven . . . I will always fall short and never be able to do enough.

      • Mmm, I thought you would believe something like that. I am going to Heaven, I assure you. Thank you for caring.

  12. Well I’m glad you thought I would believe what the Bible says.

    I will continue to pray that you believe the same.

  13. Dear Pastor, I am not gay but I cannot help but feel very saddened about your arguments! You claim that the church is an institution that it is based on Love – where is the love in all your arguments? How can you be unconditionally loving (as you are supposed to be as a good Christian) and yet so judgmental at the same time? I think those two actions are mutually exclusive, wouldn’t you agree?
    And who are you to appoint yourself as judge over other people? I think this right is reserved for God alone – a power that I have come to know as all loving, all forgiving and all inclusive! So if you truly want to be God’s messenger in the world, then perhaps a bit more of the above traits wouldn’t go amiss!

    As far as God’s judgement at the end of our days is concerned: if there indeed is such a thing as a judgment (which quite honestly I doubt very much!) then it will be what it will be for each one of us; perhaps it will be less of a judgement and more of a praise for the lessons we have learned on our journey to becoming more LOVING human beings. Now that would be a huge surprise, wouldn’t it?

    There is also another quote from the Bible – perhaps not quoted perfectly here but it seems to sum up this whole issue nevertheless: He, who is without sin cast the first stone – need I say more?
    Perhaps it would be better to remain quiet and clean up the abundant mess in the church’s own back yard, before hitting out at people who simply want to share their love and do so in ways that do not harm anyone else. If you are so sure that you will be in heaven because Jesus will forgive all your sins, then why would the same not apply to the gay people whom you so fervently oppose?
    Are your sins any different from the perceived sin of homosexuality? Strange thing this issue of equality – we are all equal but obviously some are more equal than others! Can’t help but wag my finger at you, dear Sir about all this boasting!

    I think it’s quite safe to say that Jesus will look after his flock which includes you and me and all the homosexual people in the world. And I feel very comforted by that thought – after all he did not have such huge issues with discrimination so I feel that we will all be safe in his care.
    Oh, and one more thing – when did beautiful human beings stop to be born in the image of God? Or is that just your perception? As within so without.

    • Renata, there are simply too many points you made in your comment to reply to them all. But I’ll touch on a few.

      First, I never claimed to be without sin. Second, I never said any sin was any worse than the next. You are right, we are all equally sinful (including me)!

      But…..I am not being judgmental when I am simply stating a fact that homosexuality is a sin. Is it “judging” to say that rape is a sin? Is it “judging” to say that murder is a sin? Is it “judging” to say that robbery is a sin? NO. I am not elevating myself, but only identifying what is sinful. The same is true with homosexuality. If I never identify what God says is wrong, how am I supposed to know what I am supposed to do?

      I will just add one more thought briefly . . . You seem to be picking and choosing a little bit when it comes to Scripture. You are highlighting some things that are very true in the Bible but ignoring some things that are also true. So while Jesus is certainly loving and loves all, he is also a holy and righteous God who demands perfection. And he tells us that he will definitely come back to judge (Matthew 24-25). The good news is that we who look to Jesus for forgiveness from our sins are “robed in his righteousness” Revelation 7 and our sins are covered!

      Oh, and to your final question . . . humans stopped being born in the image of God when sin entered the world. See Genesis 3 and Genesis 5:3.

      Thank you for your comments and discussion.

    • Renata asked, “where is the love.” But I would ask, what is your definition of love?” Here, Pastor Phil has eternal salvation in mind. While you and others here have focused earthly desires.

      If my son starts down a destructive path–whatever it may be–it is not loving to tolerate it and let him harm himself. It is loving to show him the way he should go.

      You and others clearly believe that homosexuality is not a destructive path, but the Bible (in many parts–both Old and New Testament) disagrees. It is, therefore, loving to want sinners from turn from that path and turn toward Jesus. Even if you disagree with the premise, it is foolish to say that isn’t love.

      Our modern culture has put a greater emphasis on tolerence than discipline, but that doesn’t change what true love really means.

  14. Why is repentance never a part of this conversation? How are people suppose to understand how they benefit from the debt Jesus paid for their sins? Renata stated,” If you are so sure that you will be in heaven because Jesus will forgive all your sins, then why would the same not apply to the gay people whom you so fervently oppose?” This is what people are led to believe if we do not talk about repentance and living the life of faith. No, it doesn’t earn heaven but it is an essential part of true faith. If I do not repent of my personal sin problems and turn from them, then I am just as condemned as the homosexual who does not turn from their sin.
    Please, also understand, Renata, Pastor Huebner is not being judgemental, he is just the mouth piece and as a Pastor called by God, he must speak what God has spoken in His word, whether it makes him “popular” or not. So, if you have an argument about being judgmental, you need to take it to God.

    • Yes, well said. Repentance is a key part of the life of faith. To repent literally means to “turn around” or “change one’s mind.” Those who don’t turn from their life of sin (whatever that sin might be, including homosexuality) do not have forgiveness. Refusal to repent is a rejection of what Jesus has done.

  15. Dear Pastor, dear Deb, I do not wish to be disrespectful to either of you – I am sure you sincerely want to do the best for others, but your arguments are somewhat flawed. Do you have any proof that a homosexual person is condemned? And if yes, by whom?

    What is it that threatens you so much about homosexuality? Or indeed about people who do not go along with your views? Is it the concept of divine love being unlimited, unconditional and non-judgmental that frightens you? Because that concept would do away with the idea of a God who sits in judgement over his children and condemns them to hell – and where would that leave the church? And you for that matter?

    With regard to judging homosexuality as a sin – who has ever been hurt or damaged by two people feeling love for each other? You mention murder, rape, robbery – they all damage and violate other human beings and their rights to the point of even taking another’s life.

    Homosexuality is not hurting anyone apart from those who appoint themselves as judges over other human beings. Who is entitled to declare the love between two homosexual people as less sincere and good than the love between a heterosexual couple? I would not dare to make such a judgement – do you really think you can?

    And what is your statement of homosexuality being a sin based on – people’s morals and ideas? It does not seem to be listed in the 10 commandments if my memory serves me right – and isn’t that what the church tells us we must live by to be without sin?

    Ghandi says God is not religion and I cannot but wholeheartedly agree. God is love. So many battles continue to be fought in the name of religion, so many atrocities have been and still are commited in the name of religion – is it not time we came out of the dark ages of judgment, righteousness and self appointed superiority and understand that our only task in this life is to become better and more loving human beings ourselves?

    If we take this goal seriously then I should think we all have enough work to do on ourselves without projecting at other people and pointing our fingers at them, because it’s easier to find fault with others than to look at the pile of smelly manure in our own garden.

    • Renata, I’m not sure I have much more to say that I haven’t already said. Most of the questions you raised are answered already in the initial blog post (like where it says in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong).

      You seem to be running with an ideal picture of God that is popular in mainstream culture, but not fully accurate when compared to Scripture.

      I will encourage you to read more carefully all of the Bible, perhaps a book like Romans would be a good place to start. That might really help with some of your questions, as well as address a number of topics we have been discussing.

  16. Dear Pastor,
    I write with disappointment that a person that seems quite knowledgable about God, has seemed to have missed the entire point of Jesus’ message of love.

    Why would God think that a faithful, loving monogamous relationship between two people of any gender is sinful? Where does the Bible mention that two men who love each other with a deep love so tremendous that they would give up their own families to become one flesh? Let alone two women!?

    Your current stance causes great hurt to those Christians (and non-Christians) who are homosexual. It says they must deny their sexuality which seeps to the very core of their being. It says they are inherently sinful, unnatural, an abomination. It causes young gay teens to suicide. It stops my gay Christian friend the right to have their love blessed by the Church that he belongs to. It causes my gay teacher friend to not come out about his sexuality to his workmates for fear of losing his job at a Christian school. How is this what God wants? A life of hurt and suffering. You tell my gay friend that he must endure a life of celibacy, which is a charismata not a choice, or worse yet that he should become straight.

    God provided us with a living Bible that continues to talk to us as we as a society learn about God’s truth. It tore down the evil of slavery, despite the fundamentalist Christian tenets that slavery was ‘God’s way’. It abolished the unequal gender laws, despite the Church designating women in their place in the home. I believe that God is now doing the same with homosexuality.

    Jenny – I pray that you find a way to see that your brother’s love for his partner is heaven-sent. Neil explains it in so much more beautiful ways than I can – lcamyopinion.wordpress.com

    • Hi. Thanks for writing. I will encourage you, like Renata, to go ahead and reread the original blog post. I list many places in Scripture where God tells us that homosexual relationships are sinful. Did you read those Scripture references? They really can’t be more clear than those couple that I highlighted.

      It really has nothing to do with me causing hurt to anyone else. That is not my intention. I’m only proclaiming what is true in God’s Word.

      I will politely challenge you, or anyone else, to show me any place in all of the Bible where there is a homosexual relationship that is approved of OR where God says that homosexuality is OK….

      There are plenty of places in Scripture that says it is sinful. Where does it say it is OK?

      • The Bible, and Jesus for that matter, does not discriminate between love. The Bible itself does not clearly explicitly mention any loving homosexual relationships (I do find it funny that my Study Bible had to explicitly state twice that the Jonathon/David relationship was not a homosexual relationship). But, and it’s a big BUT, the Bible also says nothing about loving committed homosexual relationships being sin. The passages you quote talk about ‘shameful lusts’ but do not refer to two people who, like you and I have with our partner’s, share a deep, loving committed, monogamous, soulful relationship. Re-read the quoted passages and do you think of candlelit dinners, long walks along the beach and gentle kisses OR do you think of back-alley romps, flings with prostitutes and stained sheets. If you can somehow relate it to the former I would be happy to hear, if you can only relate to the latter, then I agree that promiscuous, unloving, lustful sex between any people, heterosexual or homosexual, is sinful. The only other valid argument is that you believe that homosexual people are somehow incapable of love or that their love is not sanctioned by God.

        I look forward to your response.

      • And PS it does have all to do with the pain that you are causing with the words that you have written, what are you saying to the people in your flock, on your blog, and in person.

        You are saying to that gay person at your church if you continue to feel and act in the ‘natural’ way that God made you, then you are a sinner and are therefore condemned to hell if you don’t repent. But your gay member battles with God saying why did you make me like this? Why me? He cannot change how he feels like an alcoholic can stop drinking alcohol. You put your friend into an impossible predicament, a position to which Jesus says that He would never do. Your words, along with many others, cause tremendous hurt to all homosexual Christians.

    • Ooh, ooh, I know the answer to that one:

      “I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; You have been very pleasant to me. Your love to me was more wonderful Than the love of women. “How have the mighty fallen, And the weapons of war perished!” 2 Sam. 1:1.

      • How did I know someone was going to reference David and Jonathan?

        One cannot assume that their relationship was homosexual just because David said he dearly loved his friend. It wasn’t.

        And besides, even if it was homosexual (which it most certainly was not), NOWHERE does it say that was acceptable. (But that very good point doesn’t matter because it wasn’t a homosexual relationship anyways)

        So challenge is still unproven. There is nowhere in Scripture where a homosexual relationship is shown as something acceptable to God nor is homosexuality spoken of as something God approves of in general.

      • With respect, that is bad biblical interpretation. You consider the story of Sodom is about homosexuality, when it is about gang rape (I don’t suppose you think heterosexual gang rape is acceptable in the eyes of God). I think that is because you are bigoted about gay people. But where one man says he loves another man, which is far closer to the equal marriage now supported by increasing numbers of people, you say that cannot possibly be about homosexuality.

        You are not reading the words of the text. You are putting your own interpretation on them, because you are bigoted about homosexuality.

  17. Oh, and: What about the disciple whom Jesus loved?

  18. It is actually very poor interpretation to force English definitions of “love” (that is, erotic love) onto Greek and Hebrew words which never have that connotation. The Bible wasn’t written in English and “the disciple whom Jesus loved” specifically uses a word that doesn’t have an erotic/sexual meaning.

    • The disciple whom Jesus loved, the Beloved disciple: agape and philia, I understand. Wikipedia:
      Agápe (ἀγάπη agápē[1]) means “love” (unconditional love) in modern day Greek, such as in the term s’agapo (Σ’αγαπώ), which means “I love you”. In Ancient Greek, it often refers to a general affection or deeper sense of “true love” rather than the attraction suggested by “eros”. Agape is used in the biblical passage known as the “love chapter”, 1 Corinthians 13, and is described there and throughout the New Testament as sacrificial love. Agape is also used in ancient texts to denote feelings for one’s children and the feelings for a spouse, and it was also used to refer to a love feast. It can also be described as the feeling of being content or holding one in high regard. Agape was appropriated by Christians for use to express the unconditional love of God.[citation needed] Before agape love there was no other word to express such great love.

      So, true love, as between partners, rather than eros, a passing attraction.

      • Clare,

        First, that wasn’t from wikipedia, Michael and I both know Greek ourselves and understand biblically how it is used in contexts. But anyways . . .

        I’m sorry, but the nicest way to say this is that to assume or assert that Jesus had a homosexual relationship or homosexual feelings for the Apostle John, the disciple he loved, is both absurd and shameful.

        Ironically, your interpretation of Scripture is the one that is certainly off. For example, you totally miss the point of Sodom and Gomorrah. Sure there was “gang rape” that took place. But there was actual homosexuality there too. Read Genesis 19:5.

        Or as another point, you can’t simply take any time you find the word love in the Bible and assume that it means whatever you want it to, namely homosexual feelings. THAT is bad interpretation.

      • Genesis 19:5: They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

        For the complete avoidance of doubt, I condemn homosexual gang rape equally with heterosexual gang rape. I am sure you do too. Gang rape is a bad thing. The point is that just because gang rape is a bad thing, that does not mean that loving relationships are a bad thing. The story of Sodom condemns a failure of hospitality. It does not condemn loving relationships. If it did, God would have to send down fire and brimstone on Sodom specifically for a loving relationship, rather than because of gang rape breaching hospitality laws.

        And Agape is the settled love between a loving couple, among other things, as my quote from Wikipedia shows.

        Also, David’s “ahab” for Jonathan is a word which describes the love of two sexual partners, and also God’s love for God’s creation: remember that the Church is the “Bride” of Christ. It is by no means clear cut that this love is not the love of partners.

        Once again, read the text. You find homosexual love revolting, and so conclude that it could not be between David and Jonathan. Homosexual love is not revolting. You let your own passions skew your understanding of the text.

      • I’m sorry but I don’t know if it’s worth continuing our discussion because you don’t seem to be taking in all the answers I’m giving. I don’t think you are really willing to accept the alternative. Interestingly, your argument that my viewpoint is skewing my understanding is just as valid an argument about you.

        And as a quick answer–Gang rape wasn’t the revolting sin before the Lord. That was after the fact that God had decided to destroy the city because of the other sins. Regardless, New Testament evidence for it being a sin is even stronger.

        And regarding the word love, just because it means love doesn’t mean you can make it homosexual love whenever you feel like it. Specifically with David, within the context of his life it is obvious the sin he struggled with was heterosexual adultery and lust, not homosexual. And I’ll say it again, even if perchance David had homosexual feelings (which he didn’t) that doesn’t mean it was right in God’s sight. That would be like arguing that God is pleased with multiple marriages because David had several wives.

        So anyways, like I said, these discussions aren’t really getting anywhere and they are a little beyond the point of the original post.

  19. AB: You used there an example of alcoholics that proves the point. Just because a person has cravings for alcohol, doesn’t mean alcohol should be abused.

    And about regular, loving homosexual relationships, that’s a bit of a stretch on the Scripture passages. When it says “homosexuality” in a list of sins of those “not entering the kingdom of heaven” that doesn’t mean only shameful “in the sheets” relationships but all homosexuality. To illustrate the point, I could have a nice, loving relationship and lots of candle light dinners with another woman, but that would still be considered adultery and sinful.

    • The term homosexuality was constructed in the late 19th century so what you are reading in your Bible is a constructed interpretation of those passages. The passages themselves are about Cybelian cult worship and are about universal idolatry (see Neil’s discourse on Romans
      http://lcamyopinion.wordpress.com/2012/01/22/romans-1-part-1-if-u-aint-got-context-u-aint-got-nothin/ ). To equate what Paul is saying about universal idolatry with loving monogamous homosexual relationships is to go against the whole point of what Paul is trying to say.

      You said “just because a person has cravings for alcohol, doesn’t mean alcohol should be abused, ” what/who are you implying is being abused? Guy mentioned he has been in a loving monogamous relationship with his husband for 21 years, where is the abuse there? Are you implying just by the fact that he is attracted to someone of the same sex that that is on of itself abusive? Or is it something in particular – holding hands, kisses, mutual masturbation, anal sex? Could you please clarify how this relates to your previous comment?

      The example you provided about you going out for dinner with another woman is adultery. Just as if Guy went out for dinner with another man, would be sinful. But Guy going out with his husband is still within the confined of a loving monogamous relationship, just like when you go out for dinner with your wife.

      I understand that what you are trying to say is from as you see it, loving and Godly, and the people opposing your views that have made comment on this blog agree that you have been soft and gentle in your approach and I agree, but what you are saying no matter which way you put it, is actually bigotted and insulting to Guy and Clare. You do have the right to disagree, and you can believe that homosexuality is in your eyes sinful and against God’s word, but by opposing marriage equality, you are in fact trying to enforce your tenets of faith on to those that may not agree with you and that is what is discriminatory. By Guy and Clare disagreeing with your thoughts on homosexuality they are doing nothing that affects your faith. Do you agree?

      I apologise Guy and Clare for using you as examples. I pray that this is alright! 🙂

  20. Unfortunately, it seems this discussion is deconstructing a bit. My point of the original blog post was not to debate or get in arguments (though I’m happy to respond to questions raised).

    My point was only twofold: A) The Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is wrong; and B) those who have that understanding and belief are entitled to it as much as those in favor of homosexuality.

    And finally, I made those two points in a nice and gentle way without making any accusations or calling any names. I would expect that respect back please.

    • I apologise if anything I have said has come across as disrespectful. I have tried to remain true to the debate. I suppose where I am coming from:
      A) The Bible does not clearly oppose or reject loving monogamous homosexual relationships anywhere in the Bible. I believe we must look to what the whole Bible is saying about loving relationships to determine WWJD?
      B) I agree here. You do have a right to your belief, but if you try and enforce that belief onto someone else through opposing marriage equality then my gay friend has the right to call that bigotted and discriminatory. Just as if his faith opposed the marriage between you and your wife, you would also have the right to call it what it is.

  21. Man O Man. Lots of comments here.

    I think that I would just want to add two things.

    1. You talked about counselling gay people. You have moved into a different field here. I assume you have no psychological qualifications to do this. If you doi infact counsell gay people, especially young gay people i hope you are up to date with concerns that the APAhave with youth suicide among gay teens and the dangers of the emotional suicide that occurs when someone is encouraged to fight against who they are.

    2. Your statement that we are no longer created in God’s mage is radical to say the least. Ive never heard that from any Lutheran Pastor…anywhere. Augsburg Confession and the Apology on original sin confirm that the image of God is lost in regard to our ability to fear love and trust God. Humanity is indeed lost and dead in their sin…is helpless. Without the intervention of the Spirit through the word we could never come to a saving knowledge of God. However, the articles are at pains tp point out that the image of God is not lost in other areas. Humans can love, give, be generous, help, work for good and justice all of which comes from their image of god. Humans are gifted in many and various ways all because God has “knit them together in the womb”. All of this is also Image of God. Where does your revolutionary idea that only adam and eve had the image of God come from? i doubt it is Lutheran. Interested to know…

  1. Pingback: Poor christians | Clare Flourish

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